Zvi Mowshowitz ([info]thezvi) wrote,
@ 2009-06-11 19:31:00
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Magic 2010: Take a Third Option
Proposed Rule Changes Alt-5 and 8 (Replacing new rule 5):
Rule Alt-5: Combat damage does not use the stack. When combat damage is dealt, players may assign damage however they like and that damage is dealt including trample damage. There is no ordering of blockers.
Rule 8A: Instead of creatures with lethal damage being placed directly into the graveyard, whenever the stack is empty an effect is placed on the stack that says "All creatures that have been dealt lethal damage are put into their owners graveyards."
Rule 8B: All effects that can save creatures that would be dealt damage, including regeneration, damage prevention and protection, are errata-ed such that they can also remove damage that has already been dealt.
Technical Note: Deathtouch would likely go back to being a triggered ability, and you can choose how it deals with damage prevention however you like.

Note that this change creates a different intuition for new players. There is now a universal, intuitive rule that all creatures can be saved in a variety of ways after damage has been dealt. My instincts tell me that unlike the stack there is nothing unintuitive about this and it seems easy to explain (e.g. "You get a chance to save your men.") and you can understand it without the stack. New players get a game that's easy to understand while old players get to keep using good old stack tricks.

The one issue I can think of so far with this could make cards that damage your own men more powerful by refusing to let the stack empty and thus keeping them alive, which may enable new combinations. It is possible there is a card or two we would have to alter to prevent this if it got out of hand, but there are a number of possible fixes for that.

Note also that yes, this is similar to the pre-6E system, but its problems were in large part caused by only allowing certain types of spells and effects during a special 'damage prevention step' rather than simply giving players a chance to do whatever they want.

EDIT: A dealbreaker objection now that I've considered it is that now you can't kill anything with damage while a stack is in progress, such as in response to an enchantment or a giant growth. One fix to to say that the trigger is whenever a creature is dealt damage or its toughness is reduced, at which point a trigger is placed on the stack (empty or not) for all creatures that were effected and are now about to die (or each creature triggers seperately, which we want to avoid due to Magic Online).

Thus:
Alt-8A: Whenever a creature is dealt damage or its toughness is reduced, and this results in it taking lethal damage, put upon the stack an effect that says "If this creature has taken lethal damage then place it in its owners' graveyard. If multiple triggers occur simultaneously, combine them into one trigger." I like that last sentence for other places too! This now creates the problem that when trying to save a creature anything that damages it all will re-kill it. I'm guessing that is the price we pay...

Thus:
This is why it doesn't work. Alas. You have to get more and more convoluted to avoid doing ugly things and while you're doing that add a lot of extra stacks all the time, making the game more complex. The lesson here is that the stack works the way it does for a reason. It is simple, it is elegant, and it gives us the game we love. Combat damage uses the stack because otherwise double blocking is an ugly mess (see new rule) and because it allows us to do all sorts of cool things. We've decided that we dislike the cool things, because they are 'not intuitive' and that the ugly mess is an acceptable loss towards that end. The attempt to make these things intuitive was a noble idea, but just like the actual new rules it ends up making things more complex and ugly in the name of making them intuitive.

I enjoyed thinking about that quite a bit, and I think I learned a lot about the game and the way it works. Kudos to everyone who gave me all the great feedback, which is one reason I love the internet. There is no way to cheat this one. I still can't help but feel like there's a better way to handle double blocking, but so far I haven't been able to think of one.



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[info]hedonistpoet
2009-06-12 01:30 am UTC (link)
I need to meditate on it more, but it seems clearly better than the abomination they went with.

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[info]vicious_bomber
2009-06-12 01:38 am UTC (link)
It sounds like the bad old days. the current damage rule may not be as intuitive,but it works with all the other rules very nicely. In the olden days dealing damage was so damned confusing and asholish.

At least now there is the polite, "damage on the stack?" moment. We both know what is happening and who has priority. It's clean. it works.

Thematicly it's crap, but it works.

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[info]rickiep00h
2009-06-12 02:04 am UTC (link)
Wow... making me come back to LJ...

If I'm understanding your system properly, it basically means that combat damage is dealt and creatures are unable to use their sac abilities, since they're "on their way to the graveyard." You can do other stuff at instant speed, on the stack, and some of it can affect the creatures that are dead, but not in the graveyard. I understand it, but it's just as unintuitive as the 6ED way, I think. Not that it's bad, it just moves the stack to a step after damage is dealt, but before creatures actually go to the graveyard. If I'm reading this correctly.

I'm of the opinion that, if they actually wanted to mess with combat damage, they should have put an implicit "intervening if" on combat damage. From what I gather from the Wizards forums (and the article) more people were pissed off that their dudes some how got two-for-oned than they didn't grasp the concept of stacked combat damage.

So what about "If a source of combat damage is still in play, that damage resolves" or some such? "If, when combat damage would be dealt, its source is still in play, damage is dealt. If that source is not in play, its damage is not dealt." Seems like a wordier way of saying "Creatures not in play don't deal combat damage" but I think it's better templating than those exact words.

Aside:

Here's the thing about the stack: it's so good, my old playgroup ported it into games that didn't have it. If a game has time for people to make options, they get priority, and people get chances to respond in stack form, and things were resolved in such manner. We put it into Zombies!!!, Fluxx, both Star Trek and Star Wars from Decipher (I also tried to reconcile it with their new Fight Klub but the game is... pretty bad), and pretty much any other turn-based in-real-life game with instant-type effects or turns with many steps or phases. It's like the Robert's Rules of Order for game systems.

If it's so good even in games that weren't designed to use it, why change it up in the game it originated with? It's a system that's made specifically to address problems in an organized way.

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[info]conform
2009-06-12 05:30 am UTC (link)
The stack is great, but it's fairly arbitrary that combat damage is assigned as a lump that then goes on the stack and resolves as a single unit. There's already precedent for special actions that don't "use the stack" (drawing your card for the turn), but that isn't that different from starting a phase with certain actions already on the stack. You can still think of combat as a stack that's pre-loaded in the combat phase with a number of special actions. I.e. combat starts out looking like this:

(stack top)
Assign Attackers
Assign Blockers
Deal Combat Damage (in the new system)
(stack bottom)

When players both pass priority with an otherwise-empty stack in the Declare Blockers step, effectively what happens is the combat damage item resolves.

The change in mana rules, obviously, destroys the isomorphism here, since pools empty, but that's a relatively minor point. There's no approach here which is the most stack-oriented way to deal with combat damage, really, and this change doesn't de-stack combat in the way that the short description ("combat damage no longer uses the stack") suggests.

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[info]thezvi
2009-06-12 11:39 am UTC (link)
The old version of the rule had such gems as "on their way to the graveyard" but the proposed rule does not. You can do anythig you want to do , including a sacrifice.

And yes, for those who get it the stack is amazing. No question.

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[info]bonerici
2009-06-12 02:39 am UTC (link)
i like the red zone idea better. the real purpose of rule 5 is so that dead creatures or bounced guys dont deal combat, so just fix that. create an actual new zone in magic, in the battlefield called the red zone. you have to push creatures into the red zone to attack and when damage resolves, a creature must be in the red zone to deal or receive damage.

this will fix the noobs problem about not understanding the damage stack, they can play regular and it will work like they think it does.

I am not in favor of any fix that makes the stack more complex.

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[info]conform
2009-06-12 05:22 am UTC (link)
Your idea is interesting, but it means you can't remove creatures from play via damage in response to anything happening, which seems like a pretty radical downward shift in the value of burn to me. It's messy and, flavor-wise, awkward that Terror will get rid of a guy right now but Incinerate will not.

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[info]thezvi
2009-06-12 11:39 am UTC (link)
Good point. I have to think about whether that's worth adding complexity to stop.

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-12 06:49 am UTC (link)
I see what you're trying to do here, but from a game design perspective there are problems.

To break it down a bit:

Rule Alt-5 - This is excellent. Simple, clear and nobody will play it wrong. Flavour makes sense. All good.

Rule 8A - This is bad. Existing players would not like the fact that it stops you responding to pump by burning the target out. New players would get confused by the whole "empty stack" business (consider stuff like Suspend). It also breaks stuff like Split Second.

Rule 8B - This seems fine for stuff like Samite Healer, but what happens with stuff like damage redirection? And how does damage redirection interact with something like Furnace of Rath? And what about stuff like Stuffy Doll that triggers on damage being dealt? Is Martyrdom and Stuffy Doll now some kind of freaky combo?!

It seems like Alt-5 should be able to form the basis of a good system, but I'm not quite sure what the other pieces of the puzzle should be. The second priority after making sure the game plays well is to ensure that beginners find the rules intuitive. So I attack you, you block, our creatures deal lethal to each other and then you say "Aha, Healing Salve, pwn3d!". This has to work. But if I attack you, you block, our creatures deal lethal to each other and then I bounce my dude but yours still dies, that has to NOT work. Not because it isn't good gameplay - it is - but because Wizards requires a system which people naturally play correctly.

(Aside: this is why I hate the current layer rules, P/T switching confuses too many players right now.)

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[info]thezvi
2009-06-12 11:40 am UTC (link)
If you are going to say that bouncing my creature is DIFFERENT from damage prevention than that requires ugly on a massive scale somewhere. I don't think you can do much better than they did if what you want to do is basterdize the game.

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-12 11:49 am UTC (link)
It's not what I want, it's their perceived requirement.

It runs something like this:

* Creature combat is a fight.
* People have intuition about how fights work.
* It makes sense for us to fight and have your damage to me be magically prevented.
* It does not make sense for me to escape from the fight and yet somehow damage you as if I had stayed.

It's not about abstract strategy games (much as I personally love them), it's about Magic as a fantasy combat game. WotC want this. Indeed, they believe they need this.

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[info]thezvi
2009-06-12 01:06 pm UTC (link)
It makes perfect sense for me to sacrifice myself when I am about to die in order to take you with me, save my friends or otherwise accomplish one last thing. Fantasy characters do this all the time.

It also makes perfect sense for me to be whisked away from the battlefield as I am about to die, where presumably my life can be saved by some form of healing.

If you think of it as "we fight, and then things happen before the damage has a chance to kill us, and those things include many types of things" I don't see the problem. How many times in Final Fantasy was a boss knocked out and then lived on because he vanished? Do you hate freedom? And smoke bombs?

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-12 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Your explanation of bounce works for me. The trouble is, according to WotC's field trials it doesn't work for $JOE_PUBLIC, since it is consistently considered confusing or just outright misplayed.

We can argue with their research claims or we can argue with their objectives or we can argue with their solutions, but these are three distinct activities. (For me personally it's their objectives I disagree with. Magic was best off in its existing market.)

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MTG existing market
[info]urzafrank
2009-06-12 07:17 pm UTC (link)
I would to hear what you think as the MTG existing market.

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-12 08:34 pm UTC (link)
People for whom the existing mechanics are not offputting.

There is a trend in gaming at the moment to try to broaden audiences, much as Nintendo achieved with with Wii as compared to the GameCube. The incentive is obvious: massively increased revenues if successful. However, not all games lend themselves to this approach and I don't believe Magic is well suited to the shift.

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[info]urzafrank
2009-06-12 08:42 pm UTC (link)
Any change to something people use and like is off putting, so I think to use that a market is a stretch. By that measure every change to anything is to look for a new market.

So if you can please be a bit more specific so that i can get what you really mean.

thanks

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-12 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Specifics are not in general sufficiently compact to fit neatly in an LJ comment. And it doesn't help that I have no idea how much you already know about games demographics.

To give you a broad overview of the concept, consider a randomly chosen person living in a random US city who is between the ages of 10 and 35...

1) Suppose that I tell you they have purchased a Magic the Gathering product at least once. This tells you that they are probably male, are likely habitual gamers, are highly numerate, are from comparatively wealthy backgrounds (what would be called "middle class" here in the UK, but in the US that means something different) and so on. That is to say, the game primarily appeals to a narrow demographic.

2) Suppose instead that the person may or may not have ever purchased Magic product, but you know they play fantasy or science fiction computer games. What are the odds that they also play Magic? Answer: not high. (Certainly less than 10%, not sure exactly how low.)

3) Suppose instead that you do not know that your randomly selected person is a gamer of any kind but you know that they enjoy fantasy or science fiction movies. What are the odds that they also play Magic? Answer: pathetically low. (Certainly less than 1%, not sure exactly how low.)

From the perspective of people like Hasbro and WotC's upper management layer, stats like this suggest a strategy: do whatever it takes to make Magic appeal to this wider market which implicitly exists. It's worth paying a heavy price to do this because the numbers are so large.

My perspective differs in that I don't think Magic is well suited, even with modifications, to appeal widely. It has a steep learning curve, it is primarily about one-on-one competitive play, which is not a growth area in gaming as a whole. Compared to other games of skill it is quite random (I could quite plausibly beat a top professional in a Magic draft, although I am far from that good myself, but I could not plausibly beat a top Chess player). It has a ruleset that is way too complex. It is preposterously expensive to play by any reasonable metric.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that Magic is currently more widely played than it's design warrants. First mover advantage in the field of TCGs turns out to be huge, and R&D do a surprisingly good job, but beyond these two advantages it's got little to recommend it (despite what MaRo repeatedly claims).

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[info]urzafrank
2009-06-12 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Ok this gives me a great idea of where you are looking. I would like to think i know a bit about games demographics esp MTG & D&D. I have been playing these style of games for over 20 years now and have been involved in the business of them for over 15.

As to your points

1) I think this is quite incorrect as to this ... The term "probably" when used with "Likely" leaves for some very large variances which is where the thousands who have bought a MTG product and do not fit in the above demographic are

2) The question i would pose for the people in this section is how many have been exposed to MTG and then chose not to play? I would expect this to be quite low in percentage.

3) The above is quite accurate for this group as well

I think by asking the above questions can you then get a good idea of how big a demographic MTG appeals to.

Also your concepts about MTG play, i think, are quite incorrect or just biased toward the PT and PTQ Scenes. I would hazard that near 65% of MTG players are casual as in do play in non prerelease events. As such 1v1 is not high in their scope of interest.

As to other games of skill please when compering MTG to others please refrain from using those with zero hidden information (like chess). Skill is a much stronger lever without hidden information so the comparisons are a bit unfair.

Also as far as MTG being "preposterously expensive" again i find bias. Pick one hobby that can be played casually and competitively and then compare the cost of the two. I sure you will find them much more expensive than MTG.
Two I can think off the top of my head are golf and bowling.

All in all IMO your idea of what MTG "design warrants" is quite narrow and unnecessarily restrictive. The game could not have survived with what you are thinking but survive it has for over ten years and counting. That to me suggests that something is missing in your analysis.

Also I may be missing some important part of what you mean if so please reply

Thanks

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-13 07:30 am UTC (link)
No, I think you've understood me pretty well.

please refrain from using those with zero hidden information

Bridge would also be a good basis for comparison here. The reason I didn't pick it is because coincidentally I play it a lot better than Chess or Magic, so it wouldn't be a like-for-like comparison.

I would hazard that near 65% of MTG players are casual

It's actually far higher than that, but your connection between casual and multiplayer is only true for hardcore gamers like ourselves (mmm... EDH!). The typical play experience - and WotC are on record confirming this - is two players with one starter deck or precon each, playing against each other. For many gamers, this is not actually a good gaming experience. I was running Oxford's games night back when Magic first made an appearance. The game's attach rate was really not good, and that hasn't improved much since.

But enough about my experiences. I'm curious to hear why you think Magic's so viable as a mainstream product. Do you run a game store or something?

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[info]urzafrank
2009-06-13 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Yes, in addition I have been instrumental in helping other stores increase their MTG sales and appeal as such I feel I have some insight to that player base. (I could have just been getting lucky for the last decade or so but man I sure hope not). MTG is a game that I have watched people quit but again not because of the game itself but because of life circumstances ...such having a baby, getting a good job and moving. A great deal of these players begin playing again as soon as life permits. This suggests that the primary reasons players stop is access to playing MTG in fashion that appeals to them. This is why MTGO was introduced and was a great success. So if the appeal is low it might not be the game itself.

While I agree that the appeal of MTG is not like a Monopoly game I think it has much larger appeal than just to the 14-22 year old males who like numbers and competition. Also if by the above typical play experience you mean how players are introduced to the game the above is a poor gaming experience for most if not all games that are expansive, in contrast to a game like UNO or Chess which is self contained where MTG adds more and more games pieces. In an expansive game you need teachers for the game. The above seems like both players are new and that is quite bad. Also if the attach rate is low the retention rate must be very very high for the to have the success it has had

If by mainstream product you mean like Monopoly then we agree MTG is not a viable mainstream product. If by mainstream product you mean like World of Warcraft than we have a different opinions.

Again I look forward to any and feedback
Thanks

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[info]bateleur
2009-06-13 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Also if the attach rate is low the retention rate must be very very high

Which, as you point out, it is.

If by mainstream product you mean like Monopoly

No, not really. I was thinking more of products like games consoles. Or to speak in terms of more concrete numbers, Magic currently has a player base in the 5-10 million range worldwide and the question is whether it can make the jump to the 100 million range.

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[info]urzafrank
2009-06-13 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Then I think we agree that MTG is Ill suited to those numbers.

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[info]desh
2009-06-15 12:30 pm UTC (link)
Sorry I'm coming late to the game. Why not keep the rules as announced, but get rid of the ordering of blockers entirely? Yes, it makes damage prevention a lot worse in the multiple-blocker scenario, and regeneration worse too, but really, how often do people use damage prevention? This would re-enable post-combat Pyroclasm and the like, and eliminate the deathtouch exception by making all combat damage work like deathtouch damage. And I think those are worthier goals than twisting ourselves into contortions to enable Samite Healer.

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[info]bonerici
2009-06-17 08:38 pm UTC (link)
because it leads to this completely ill scenario

1) I announce attack with a 5/5 giant
2) u announce triple block with 3 bears
3) u have healing salve so you use it on bear #3.
4) Damage goes on and I kill bear #1 and bear #2. Your healing salve is useless.

The way it works under M10

1) announce 5/5 giant attacks
2) triple block
3) attacker orders creatures #1, #2 #3
4) you healing salve bear #1
5) no matter how I assign damage, you get to save a bear with your healing salve

THAT is why M10 has the creatures going in "at bat" order.

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[info]desh
2009-06-17 09:01 pm UTC (link)
Right, I'm convinced that "at bat" enables Healing Salve. I'm just not convinced that enabling Healing Salve is more important than fixing the rest of the stuff. Damage prevention may be an intuitive part of the game for new players, but it doesn't have to stay in the game and avoid being weakened by these changes, and [I've never been a high-level Magic player but I think] damage prevention has never been a part of high-level Magic anyway.

And please don't bring up Death Ward.

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[info]bonerici
2009-06-17 08:39 pm UTC (link)
btw I think this would be a better result too. It's not worth it just to save samite healer.

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[info]aryll
2009-06-20 06:34 pm UTC (link)
Why not just have it like it is now, but when damage resolves, it checks to see if its source is in play, if not, it is not dealt. Might increase the rules complexity to keep track of who did what to whom, but in most situations it would seem easily intuitive. Maybe I'm missing weird cases where you could exploit the rules and make counterintuitive plays still, but it would seem far less clunky than what they came up with.

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